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Simon G-S
03-01-08, 12:41 AM
Im toying with the idea of putting a beam axle under my devon pickup. Sherpa and transit are too wide, I think the width of a pop is about right, i nee around 50" hub to hub. I believe its fairly straight forward to put disc brakes on. Ive seen some big engines on drag cars held up by these and always thought they looked a bit fragile, any one got experince of these ?
The other option is to fabricate, anyone done this or know a man who can ? how do i keep caster and camber?
Help and advice appreciated. Cheers, Simon.

Brizey
03-01-08, 02:08 AM
Personally, i would get a tube axle made!, for strength and piece of mind if nothing else on a street driven car.
Compaired to American axles pop items are fragile, US axles were designed to carry the weight of a V8 and a heavier frame and body, pop axles were designed to carry small four bangers in a considerably lighter car.
Remember, drag cars spend most of there life standing still and only have any "hard" activity in 1/4 mile straight line bursts, not that taxing on stock pop equipment!.
Start throwing cornering, pot holes, speed bumps and all the other road irregularities into the equasion, and your putting stress`s through an axle not intended to carry heavy weight, especialy with v8 motor`s at modern road speeds.
Everthing on a pop axle is down sized compaired to larger American axles, that includes wimpier spindles, smaller dia, kingpins/bushes etc, and this will reflect in the weight they can SAFELY carry.
Someone will say they`re OK, there are Rods and Gasser style street driven cars out there with them on, but for piece of mind, i would`nt use one under a V8 motored street driven rod.
Use stock Ford spec for camber(9deg) and caster (6-7deg). US axles had an 8 deg king pin inclination.
Camber is built into the axle ends when made, caster is adjusted by the adjustable locating method, four bar/wishbone/split wishbone etc...

langysrodshop
03-01-08, 10:28 AM
Couldn't agree more, In my opinion it would be far better to get a tube axle made, Shouldn't be too expensive, I've made them in the past using 1/4" wall CDS tube and turning ends up to suit early ford kingpins & spindles, The hardest part is Milling the ends of the tube to set the camber but if you have access to a decent mill its easy, Finally TIG weld and your good to go.

Morris460
03-01-08, 03:12 PM
I'm not arguing with Brian and Steves reasoning but I am curious, Has anyone any experience or heard of one breaking or bending (I am aware of the model Y's deficiencies in this area). If so what failed and how. I have searched the trials sites and any old pop based car sites I can find and turned up nothing.

stueeee
03-01-08, 04:51 PM
These do look spindly when they're compared to American beam axles. But they've been used in all sorts of circuit racing cars and I haven't heard of one failing either. I do have an interest in this debate 'cos I have a pre-war Austin fitted with a period Ford based LMB front axle setup.

Mallock clubman racing cars used E93A swingaxles until about 1968 -Ok the cars are light, but they were (and are in historic clubmans racing) running racing tyres and generating huge cornering and braking forces by comparison with the original car. Also Leslie Ballamy famously raced a team of Ford Populars with a great deal of success, once again using the original beam converted to a swing axle which hugely increases the load on the kingpins, eyes and hub spindles, still no reputation for failure.

I have done some engineering work on these axles in the past, they are by no means made of rubbish steel -Not sure of the spec. but it's a seriously tough material to work with.

Stuart.

crumble
03-01-08, 05:16 PM
anxious arnold has been running his gasser pop with a stock pop axle with a 502 big block above it. it was also pulling wheelies as well!

40Stude
03-01-08, 05:17 PM
I know Al Stevens racked up a fair few miles on his Pop using the stock front axle holding up an Essex V6, ok, no big block but never destined to win slimmer of the year either. While undoubtedly spindly in appearance when compared to 'full size' set ups does that really mean the set up would be totally unsuitable? Just playing devil's advocate here but if we subscribe to the theory that a Pop axle was never intended to be subjected to the weight of an eight, shouldn't that also apply to Viva/MGB/Cortina front ends too?

WB54
03-01-08, 05:19 PM
it's the spindles which break, their only 5/8in and their typically quite old and not the best in terms of materials used. I don't think the beam would break, god knows I tried in my slingshot, highest wheelstand was 2 1/2 foot with a 38lb weightbar strapped to it, and although it was light, it used to come down with a thump. I would go for a tube front, at least you'll know it's good.

blown pop
03-01-08, 05:27 PM
anxious arnold has been running his gasser pop with a stock pop axle with a 502 big block above it. it was also pulling wheelies as well!


2ND that ...

Dusty
03-01-08, 06:29 PM
My old T had a V6 on a Pop axle, it's still running around without problems. The current owner did bend the rear wishbone at the drags though and replaced it with a ladder bar.

langysrodshop
03-01-08, 07:48 PM
Paul i was referring to the spindly spindles.

Pop axles were indeed used in a few race cars but they wern't holding up a big V8.




I'm not arguing with Brian and Steves reasoning but I am curious, Has anyone any experience or heard of one breaking or bending (I am aware of the model Y's deficiencies in this area). If so what failed and how. I have searched the trials sites and any old pop based car sites I can find and turned up nothing.

Brizey
03-01-08, 07:57 PM
it's the spindles which break, their only 5/8in and their typically quite old and not the best in terms of materials used. I don't think the beam would break,

I certainly agree about the spindles Phil!, but i`ve known axles to break too, normally through the king pin locking bolt hole, just inboard of the king pin itself.
I was shown one from a street driven rod back in the early 70s that had snapped across the lock bolt hole, the car (a pop) had a V8 fitted!.

I also saw some broken in the same place, as well as spindles, when my brother-in-law raced a Spedeworth stock car. Sure, stock car racing is a contact sport, some times violent, but some breakages were`nt down to heavy contact. They happened due to cornering loads (nearly always on the right side) where a lot of the car weight was concentrated during oversteer power slides.
I know we don`t ALL drive our rods like stock cars, but my point is, they broke because they were used in a situation they were not designed to be used in...

Equipped28
03-01-08, 07:58 PM
Im Sure Pop Brown Can Make A Tube Axle Cos My Dad Asked Him About One For His 55 Chev

Morris460
03-01-08, 08:25 PM
Thats what I was looking for Brian, thanks. I had a reason for asking, I was going to fit one on my pop (extended wheelbase and little weight) but considered it marginal. I just don't think a tube axle will have the look I want. Having said that I have no wish to keep checking my life insurance.

kapri
03-01-08, 09:08 PM
Look at the difference in size between the kingpins on a Pop and an E83W ( not a lot more weight or power ). My take is that if OEM could save a couple of bob by not uprating then they would have .

Simon G-S
04-01-08, 10:33 PM
Thanks for input, going for a fabricated beam using sherpa spindles and parabolic springs. Logic being its probably not as much work to find, rebuild & install a pop axle with discs etc AND no worries about will it hold up to abuse AND can make to fit my chassis, width, spring pads etc
I'll let you know how it goes.
Thanks again. Simon.